PHILOSOPHY Returns from the Pen of MARGREET DE HEER

Margreet De Heer, Emeritus Stripmaker des Vaderlands (former Comics Laureate of the Netherlands), joins Interviews Editor, Andrew Irvin, to discuss the new edition of her graphic novel, Philosophy, available through March 20th on Zoop, with new art to share!

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COMIC BOOK YETI: Welcome to the Yeti Cave, Margreet! How is everything in the Netherlands? (I am curious; are you currently located below sea level?)

MARGREET DE HEER: Haha, I actually had to look that up! I thought I lived under the sea, but it turns out Amsterdam is about four meters above sea level. Which is arbitrary, according to the tides of course. And the land around the city is definitely below, so let's hope the dykes hold for a while.

CBY: Indeed! The coastal infrastructure in the Netherlands is truly a massive feat of engineering. Turning our eyes from the sea to your comics career, your site has a well-summarized bio so I don’t want to trod well-worn territory, but can you share a bit about how, in the years since you began in comics, you have seen the industry evolve differently within the Netherlands from elsewhere in the world (particularly being adjacent to the Franco-Belgian bandes dessinees tradition)?  

MDH: Hmm, let me think about how to answer this question without sounding too bitter... First of all, I love the Dutch comics scene. It's small; when I started out everyone knew each other. There's also a strong feeling of being the underdog. Both nationally, measured against The Arts (hardly any funding for comics, we're always disappearing in the gap between Literature and Fine Arts), and internationally, when measuring ourselves against the Greats in Belgium and France. There's a lot of complaining, but that's a typical Dutch pastime overall.

My personal pet peeve is the lack of understanding about crowdfunding in Holland. That's really a big difference with other countries. Lots of Dutch comic artists view crowdfunding with suspicion. They feel it's like begging, and too much work, while I see it as an elegant tool to connect with your readers and to own and control your own work.

But let's stay positive: when I started out there was no education for comic artists. Since 2009, aspiring comic artists can study Comics Design at ARTEZ in Zwolle. A lot of exciting young talent has come forth since then. I can definitely say the Dutch comics scene is very vibrant and lively at the moment.

CBY: From what I gather, it looks as though you've put a lot of work into making it a more hospitable environment for young creators since 2009, as well. While the title we’re here to discuss is your graphic novel, Philosophy, you mention you studied theology – as others in your family have pursued—and as someone with a foot in both camps, what do you perceive to be the key differences in epistemology between the two? Is the ontological assumption of the presence of divinity the defining trait of theology that distinguishes the two, or am I being reductive? 

MDH: That's a deep question! Yeah, I suppose Theology always argues from the point of there being a God. And refers to the Bible as the main text. But in the end, in my opinion, they deal with the same concepts: what is Reality? What is the purpose of Life?

CBY: Let's see how close we can get to an answer over the rest of this interview! I appreciate the identification of dimensions or aspects of “being”—those defining traits that confer our character and identity. I often joke over how Americans ask people, “how’re you doing?” while Aussies ask, “How ya going?” despite the more appropriate interrogative is really, “how are you being?” Is there some other similar form of Dutch phrase used to elicit feedback about the state of other people that doesn’t align quite literally with what is being asked? Since the book is being presented in translation, are there any other turns of phrase you felt you needed to revise for the English edition? 

MDH: Haha, just the other day I heard someone explaining the etymology of two Dutch phrases for "how are you doing": "Hoe gaat het?" - "How is it going?" - and "Hoe staat het?" - "How is it standing?". "How is it going?" seems to refer to bowel movements, whereas "how is it standing?" is an implicit inquiry into someone's libido! :D

Dutch is a funny language, and some turns of phrase are untranslatable... I can't think of any specific phrase right now, but I can tell you that I translate my own books and sometimes take great liberties that I wouldn't take when translating someone else's text. Dutch is a rather "long" language, it uses more words than English. That's a positive in translating comics: I hardly ever run into the problem of the text balloons being too small for the English translation.

CBY: Ah yes, I always viewed Dutch as the bridge between English and German, and it definitely carries the predilection for compound words that Germans indulge, as well. For this new edition, now available through Zoop, how did you decide to partner with the Zoop team for this publication as opposed to working through either another crowdfunding platform or releasing a re-print through more conventional publishing arrangements? What made Zoop the right home for this endeavour?  

MDH: As far as I know, Zoop is the only crowdfunding platform that offers to take on the whole load of the crowdfunding: from campaign to fulfillment. I love doing campaigns - I have several under my belt already on Dutch platform Voordekunst. But the fulfillment side of things is not my favorite: storing boxes of books, getting them ready to ship—I'd rather have another party deal with that. 

In The Netherlands, I partner up with Personalia Publishing, who are excellent at the logistical and promotional side of things. I was looking for an international party to do the same, especially since I hope to make Philosophy, and possibly also the other titles from the series (Science, Religion, World Domination and Love) internationally available again. I love that Zoop also has a storefront where books will remain available after the campaign.

CBY: Yeah, that's definitely a perk if you're not trying to manufacture scarcity with a "blink and you miss it" print run. I was excited at the prospect of chatting over Philosophy, as I’ve quite enjoyed philosophical subject matter when I’ve seen it presented in comic form previously. I bought my daughters the graphic novelization of Sophie’s World (also translated into English), and I recently enjoyed Gestalt’s graphic novelization of Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, so I was wondering, what other philosophy-focused comics were points of reference when you originally wrote Philosophy, and what other titles have you come to appreciate in the years since its initial publication?

MDH: When I wrote and drew Philosophy, I was not aware of any other comics that did the same! I've been very much inspired by Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics, which could be viewed as a philosophical treatment of the comics genre. His approach of visually guiding the reader through concepts and arguments was really eye-opening for me.

Coincidentally, in the same month Philosophy first came out in The Netherlands, there was Logicomix  - a wonderful graphic novel about philosopher and mathematician Bertrand Russell. This broke ground for comics about philosophy outside of the traditional comics scene and definitely helped my own book get noticed.

CBY: I'll have to check out Logicomix, as we all owe Russell a debt for giving us his Teapot, which allows us to challenge charlatans and internet trolls on their bad faith arguments. From 2017-2020, you held the role of Stripmaker des Vaderlands (Comic Artist Laureate of the Netherlands). You’ve been followed by Herman Roozen, and now Jan Vriends holds the title. I’m mostly familiar with Laureate positions through the US Poet Laureate role at the Library of Congress; can you tell us a bit about the selection process entails, and once you’ve earned the title, what is both conferred upon you and expected of you?

MDH: Oooh, that was such a wild ride! I was one of four contestants for the title in 2017... well, they asked me if I wanted to compete and I immediately knew this was the job for me. The initiative was new, and I spent a summer "campaigning", since people could cast votes. It helped that I got an interview on national TV... In the end it was close, but I won!

Nobody knew exactly what to expect from a Laureate, so it was a position I could really make my own. "To represent Dutch comics in the broadest sense" was basically the assignment. I chose to focus on getting graphic novels into schools. My biggest achievement as a Laureate was to make a guide for teachers, listing 55 graphic novels in the Dutch language (including Belgian/Flemish publications) that I deemed suitable to include in literature lessons. I distributed the guide at a national teachers' event, so everyone got it. I still get emails about it. It really seems to have had an impact.

CBY: I can imagine, as building a national canon of comics is no small feat! Autobiography is a recurring method you employ in your work, which is often focused on educational objectives, as well. You’ve made a point of tackling subject matter often with the intent of raising awareness around various issues, or providing entry points into the medium for young creators. Not all creators take such a socially conscious or uplifting approach toward the medium; which of your projects have proven most gratifying, and where do you see the greatest opportunity to make impact with your work in the medium (and beyond)? 

MDH: I guess the most impactful educational comic I made was the one about the Global Goals, in collaboration with Reading With Pictures for the UN, which has been translated in over twenty languages and is distributed freely worldwide - although, ironically, this is not a comic with my usual "autobiographical" approach.

Coming in second is the Discovery in Comics series, of which Philosophy is the first. These books are still widely used in schools, and I'm immensely proud of them. I think comics in schools are a natural fit!

CBY: I have definitely used them at every possible turn to get my own kids interested in certain topics. While Philosophy is returning in this latest edition, you’re a mutli-faceted creator who isn’t afraid to tackle a variety of projects, with single page cartoons and graphic novels rounding out your portfolio. What projects are you working on at the moment or have coming up on your production slate that you can tell us a bit more about so our readers know what to expect after they pick up Philosophy?

MDH: Now that Philosophy has made such an excellent start, I feel very motivated to prepare the next title for a re-launch... that would be either Science or World Domination. I hesitate a bit between the two. Science is a 200-page overview of virtually all of the sciences (it was inspired by and likened to Bill Bryson's A Short History of Nearly Everything) - whereas World Domination is a much more personal study of how power works, which powers drive the world, and how not to lose hope in the face of global problems. It might be very timely to get that one out into the world.

CBY: It looks like the campaign is well on its way to reaching its funding goal within the next few days if support keeps up at this rate, and I hope you can carry the momentum through a subsequent, and timely, re-issue of your other titles. There is a dizzying array of philosophical approaches to interpreting reality posited by countless individuals exploring the boundaries of thought over the millennia. Are there any particular schools of thought you’ve found a particular affinity for over your own journey of self-exploration as you navigate the world? While you introduce the ideas of many philosophers in your graphic novel, are there any particular recommendations you’d make for readers to pursue deepening their appreciation of the discipline beyond the pages of Philosophy?

MDH: Buddhism has been the greatest influence on my own journey of self-exploration, truly. Is that philosophical or more in the spiritual realm? Anyway, for me, born and raised in the Protestant Church (with two ministers for parents) it was eye-opening to read the Bhagavad Gita, for instance.

Buddhism taught me meditation, which brought me a lot in terms of understanding myself and how the mind works. In the past decade, magic mushrooms have informed much of my worldview. Although, hmmm, that's probably not a recommendation I ought to make here. Nonetheless, that's how it is. Personal experience of 'the Whole' has brought me far, far more understanding than books.

CBY: Having both parents as ministers is one scenario Catholic kids get to avoid, I suppose (but at least mushrooms are denomination-agnostic, and clinical trials would show the evidence is with you). To close, we provide guests with the opportunity to share creative work unrelated to their own projects. What other comics, literature, art, films, music, etc. have been catching your attention lately? What should our readers check out after they read Philosophy?

MDH: I really enjoy how Substack works for me. It's where I post my newsletter, but the main attraction is that it allows me to connect with other creators. I'm subscribing to about 150 publications there, so every day my inbox fills up with content curated to my personal comic-minded taste.

I can highly recommend Jason Chatfield for his cartoons, rants and live-streams, and Kelcey Ervick for her thoughtful comics and excellent side-hustle Letters To Dead Authors and Artists (which informs my reading list: through this I discovered British author Elizabeth Taylor, whose Angel I'm now reading). There are many more artists with great comics on there, who can be found in the recommendations with my newsletter. All worth a look!

I'm an avid listener to the Comic Lab Podcast by Dave Kellett and Brad Guigar - they both make great comics and have been dispensing their wisdom and experience as independent comic artists for over eight years now. Their crowdfunding advice in particular is indispensable.

And let’s not forget the Adam Buxton Podcast which I've recently rediscovered! I like his friendly, upbeat tone, his funny songs and his interesting guests.

In general, I like and recommend following real people, telling real personal stories. Connection is the buzzword for the coming decade!

CBY: Real human connection is how we will find the resolve to make it through these challenging times together (and I think you've given me a reason to look at revising my approach to Substack). On that note, Margreet, it has been an enlightening experience having you stop by the Yeti Cave. The accompanying drawings were an added treat I'm glad we get to share. If you have any other publication, portfolio, or social media links you’d like to share with our readers, this is the moment, and we thank you for your contributions!

MDH: Come join my newsletter community on margreetdeheer.substack.com! That's where it all happens - or sometimes not, when there's a dry spell. I'm currently in a flow of drawing daily comics about my life commuting between Amsterdam and Germany, overseeing a renovation at my mom's house, starting a crowdfunding... :D This interview will probably pop up in one of my daily comics, too!

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