BARRY KITSON and MARK WAID Breathe New Life into EMPIRE

Barry Kitson and Mark Waid stop by the Yeti Cave to chat with Interviews Editor, Andrew Irvin, about their Zoop campaign for the definitive edition of their lauded work, Empire.

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COMIC BOOK YETI: Mark and Barry, it is a tremendous honor to have you both drop by the Yeti Cave! I’m glad this deluxe hardcover re-release of Empire through Zoop provided a good excuse for you both to drop by. How are you both feeling about the campaign’s success thus far? 

MARK WAID: I’m thrilled. We funded in five hours, which is pretty remarkable. What I want people to know is that we have no plans to have this edition (or any hardcover edition) published anywhere else for the foreseeable future, so if they want this book, this is their one chance at it!

BARRY KITSON: I can only echo Mark on this question - his answer says it all!

CBY: I'm sure our readers will appreciate the advance notice this is a limited-time opportunity! It’s my understanding you’ve known each other in a professional context since Justice League of America: Year One (correct me if I’m wrong) - what were your impressions of each other going into your first collaboration together, and how has your relationship evolved over the decades since you met?

MW: We go back to L.E.G.I.O.N., my first DC Universe job after I proved myself on The Flash. I’ve always admired Barry’s art and his storytelling even before then, so I was excited to partner up–especially when I saw he makes margin notes with rough dialogue, which is always helpful so that when I do finished dialogue, I’m not having to guess! Our relationship only grew stronger as we went on to other projects, from JLA: Year One to The Flash and Green Lantern: The Brave and the Bold and so much more in between – even up to the relatively recent Dr. Strange run we worked on together. It’s really a great partnership (and friendship)!

BK: At the time I was writing and drawing L.E.G.I.O.N., which was a wonderful position to be in creatively, but also put a lot of demands on time, so the idea came up that as Mark was available perhaps he could come on board as dialoguer. It took only one conversation, I think, for it to be clear that we weren’t going to stick to such defined roles and that bouncing ideas off each other was going yield creative dividends. Working together adds a level of fun to every project we tackle together – partly because we try to surprise each other at every stage. Empire is possibly the distillation of our working relationship as we own the characters, so no outside influence got placed on us.

CBY: With the entirety of Empire being collected in this definitive edition, what led you both to decide to re-release this title in partnership with Zoop? With independent comic projects, preference between crowdfunding platforms is always a point of curiosity, but as both of you have deep career ties within the industry, what was Zoop able to offer that made it the clear choice for this latest print edition?

MW: First, I’ve known the folks behind Zoop since before there was a Zoop, long before the comics crowdfunding trend took off. I have complete trust in Zoop. Another advantage is that Zoop’s services, unlike those of most other crowdfunding platforms, are a la carte – they can do as little or as much as you want them to do, and the idea alone that I wouldn’t have to be stuffing fulfillment envelopes out of my garage for days and days made them attractive.

BK: Mark recommended Zoop and my wife ,who has and does project manage many crowd funded art related projects, gave them a good review, too, so I was happy to trust their judgement.

CBY: Ah yes, you've given me a flashback to my record label days, Mark, prepping hundreds of envelopes, so I can empathize with your line of reasoning, for sure. Going back to the origins of Empire, you both were invested in Gorilla Comics, which was an imprint of Image you launched with Kurt Busiek, George Pérez, and others in 2000. Considering the longevity of your respective creative careers in the comics industry, I was surprised by the short-lived nature of Gorilla Comics, especially given the quality of the slate of titles. Given the benefits of a bit of hindsight, can you both reflect on what went into getting Gorilla up and running, and what elements didn’t work, leading to its dissolution after only a couple years of operations? What lessons did you learn that fed into your business practices thereafter?

MW: Couple years? Try couple months. The short version of the story is, we were led by a trusted intermediary and longtime friend of mine to believe he/we had secured stable financing. Come to find out literally the day before we sent our first book, Empire #1, to the printer, that financier had dropped out months earlier and we were only being told that day. That put us behind the 8-ball immediately. And with none of the other Gorilla participants – George Perez, Kurt Busiek, Karl Kesel, Tom Grummett, Stuart Immonen, and others – terribly practiced at business and fundraising, we had to pull the plug relatively quickly. Luckily, Image and other companies came knocking on our door immediately, aware that the folding of Gorilla had nothing to do with the quality of the material. My memory is that everything found a home sooner than later. What did I learn from this? Trust but verify.

BK: Mark summed the story up very well there - I can only add that my lesson was to be a lot more cautious about accepting anyone’s word about a situation without some evidence to back up their version of events.

CBY: "Always bring receipts" is universally valuable advice, indeed. I’d like to turn back from business practices to creative process. In building the world of Empire together, Mark, I’ve seen samples of some of your scripts over the years, noting your description of comic writing as communicating “frozen moments” – you’ve got a really effective, economic style that conveys an immense amount – the narrative utility of your word choice comes through clearly. What sort of supplemental conversations did you two share beyond what went on the page in setting the tone, mood, and the particulars of how panels stand alone and lead into each other? How much deliberation arose, and what sort of creative shorthand, comfort zones, and spaces of trust were you able to formulate to stay on the same page with each other in ways that differ from your other collaborations? 

MW: It really is a totally comfortable zone we work in. With Barry, we talk over the issue’s events before I sit down to do anything and play friendly one-upsmanship with each other’s ideas. Once I feel I have enough where an issue’s coming together in my head, I go off and work up a brief two-to-three page plot broken down by scenes and with rough drafts of the most essential dialogue bits. When it comes back, I’m always pleasantly surprised that Barry made it all work even better than I’d envisioned. It’s a fully collaborative process. 

BK: It’s always a great compliment when Mark accepts my pacing of the plot with few changes, and even more so when on occasion I see the final printed issue and realise he omitted some of his original dialogue because he felt the pictures told what he wanted without needing any balloons. I can’t speak for Mark on this but I don’t think in our entire working relationship I have ever once read the final version of an issue and thought the dialogue could have been any better than he nailed it.

CBY: It's heartwarming to see the mutual appreciation you both offer regarding each other's process and contributions, especially within such an enduring partnership that might have long ago outgrown the honeymoon phase. As you start Empire’s run in which Golgoth consolidates control over the planet, you introduce his Ministers – some appearing prominently and some only mentioned – who preside over the portfolios of Clockworks, Discipline, Dispatch, Espionage, Execution, Information, Transportation, War, and Works. As we witness the motley crew of sycophants, warhawks, grifters, and creeps consolidating power in various nations around the world, your depiction of power politics appears evergreen over 25 years later. Which figures from either history or fiction fed into the characters you created for Empire?

MW: From history, that’s a Barry question. From fiction, my number one inspiration was Charles Foster Kane, Citizen Kane being my favorite movie. I’ve always been fascinated by stories of people who think they’re serving a greater good when they are, in fact, being petty narcissists. Beyond that, there’s the common thread of “be careful what you wish for” that’s integral to both their stories.

BK: I think the only direct correlation I can remember was from having read a lot of historical analysis on how the Third Reich operated with constant battles between Hitler’s underlings for his attention and approval – a group of almost entirely self-centered egos battling amongst themselves for influence, power and ultimately survival. 

CBY: Useful lessons to draw for the current moment, so the re-release is all the more timely. I notice at a foreign policy level, Empire doesn’t shy away from geopolitical conflict, with conversations about both Cuba and Greenland happening within a page of each other, providing what has become an alarmingly prescient glimpse of how American foreign policy has grown increasingly bellicose since you initially wrote this comic. What sort of research went into this title at the time, and how has the process of depicting a megalomaniacal villain impacted your perspective on seeing the broader geopolitical situation unfolding around us amidst current affairs?

MW: All I really know to say about that is, we obviously had no idea that truth would become stranger than fiction and that America would actually become a place where–at least for now–evil won and the bad guys rule. If we were starting Empire today, I think it’d feel redundant.

BK: It is a little spooky how sometimes life imitates art.

CBY: The same sentiment came through in conversation with Mike Carroll and John Higgins over the eerie and uncannily close elements of Dreadnoughts. You’ve both had some of the most consistent, laudable comics careers in the industry; Mark, you started with a short Superman story, and Barry, you kicked things off with Spider-Man in the UK. What dynamics in the industry have changed since your earliest work, and how would you do things differently if you were starting fresh in 2026 instead of 1985-86?

MW: The greatest dynamic shift I can see is that comics are no longer being done by straight white men 97% of the time, and I laud that. There’s so much more experimental and personal work coming out every week, that there’s an energy to comics inconceivable in the mid-1980s.

BK: I totally agree with Mark’s observation. The other biggest change for me would be in the leaps in technology - there was no digital option when I began drawing comics, no scanning of artwork, everything hand drawn and physically delivered to the offices. It’s very hard to second guess myself on what I would do differently if starting out now - so much has changed. I think probably I would start with a creator-owned project and see how things went from there.

CBY: It's encouraging to have you both reflect on the positive shifts in the industry, acknowledging the decentralization that has taken place. Barry, after giving this interview on Empire from 2014 with Chris Sims, what sort of precedent does this campaign set for a continuation of the Empire narrative? Mark, you’ve been very gracious about speaking in various fora regarding comics writing as a craft, and I am curious what thoughts you both have regarding trying to launch a new title compared to trying to breathe new life into work that still has mileage left in it? How do you both approach making a prospective reader (be they a publisher, editor, retailer, or random fan at a con) fall in love with the story you’re trying to tell before you get around to telling it?  

MW: Ooof. (You said there’d be no math.) All I can really think to say here is that the works that are easier to sell and promote are the ones that have personal investment – that are clearly stories that only you can tell – all while remembering that the key is an interesting protagonist. Not, as conventional wisdom says, necessarily a likeable one. I don’t know anyone who thinks Holden Caulfield is a good dude. Same with Walter White. Doesn’t matter. So long as you give the reader a protagonist whose journey you’re invested in, either because you’re rooting for them or rooting against them, you’re in good shape.

BK: That’s why he’s the wordsmith - great answer! The protagonist is the key – I have read quite a few graphic novels recently where I thought the art was great and the concept really interesting, but I found the reading experience unsatisfactory as I just didn’t find myself actually caring about any of the characters. And I am happy to put in black and white that I think Mark’s true genius is that he can encapsulate a character in dialogue and make you care about them as well as anyone in the business.

CBY: I'll second that - Mark, you've done a phenomenal job of writing both engaging (if not always endearing) perspectives into your characters that Barry has breathed visual life into on the page. You’ve both had the opportunity to collaborate with a wide array of some of the industry’s most talented creative professionals. After decades working on some of the top IP in comics, are there any opportunities that have not yet come across your desk regarding any titles you’d both like to work on, or collaborators you’d like to work with in the future?

MW: Too many, as far as creators go. Younger ones, older ones – seriously, anyone I can learn from is good by me. As far as IP goes, truthfully I think I’ve written about every IP under the sun by now. My go-to answer is always, “Doc Savage or The Lone Ranger,” though judging by their popularity, I probably should take a swing at a Turtles story someday.

BK: The only thing that comes to mind for me is that I have never drawn a Daredevil story – I was working on one for Marvel Fanfare long ago, but then scheduling and ‘better offers’ came along and I never got to finish it.

CBY: I'm sure both of those ventures would be well-received, and hopefully our audience won't have to wait indefinitely to see both endeavors come to fruition. To conclude, we always like to close with an opportunity for our guests to share some work unrelated to their own endeavors that they have enjoyed lately. What have you both been enjoying lately that our readers ought to check out once they’ve picked up the new edition of Empire?

MW: Deniz Camp and Eric Zawadzki’s Assorted Crisis Events is probably my favorite regularly published comic these days. I’ve also just recently discovered Ice Cream Man and have been devouring that – not just because it’s entertaining, but because there are so many clever storytelling tricks there that I’m eager to steal.

BK: I’ve always been a fan of Mike Mignola, but I think his latest work in Bowling with Corpses... universe – if I can call it that – are a complete delight. I’m also really enjoying the Something is Killing the Children universe a great deal.

CBY: Mark and Barry, it is a distinct honor to have you here. Your respective and collective work has been an enduring inspiration, both to me and many of our readers, and it is an enlightening opportunity to have you share your insights today. Thank you for dropping by the Yeti Cave, and if there are any portfolio, publication, or social media links you’d like our readers to check out, now is the time and place to share!

MW: You can find me @markwaidwriter on Instagram and Mark Waid on Facebook!

BK: You can find me @barrykitsonart on both Instagram and Facebook - the Facebook group has become my main focus for some time now, and I post there almost daily and encourage as much interaction within the group as possible. It’s stretched and, I think, improved my artwork – I don’t think I have ever had so much fun in the business!

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